Monday, August 11, 2008

PR, take a stand NOW on their Bar Forum "storm-troopers" - not after Aug 26.

"Closed door discussions" - that is what the possibly soon to be former government has always been doing and then coming out with a statement that this decision or that decision had been made. Who were the persons in that closed-door discussion? How do you choose them? What were the points raised this way, and that -- all this would be denied the people if one were to adopt the position that it should be a closed-door dialogue or discussion. We must be open -- and mature.

Mature in a sense that we are willing to listen and appreciate the points made by others, and take it into consideration. Mature is the putting forward of our points for the consideration of others. Mature is not the calling of names ---"Babi", etc... Mature is not the rediculing of others.

But alas, Malaysians do not really have good examples about how to be mature and be able to conduct proper discussions. Just look at our Parliament - see how they behave. Name calling, and all. There really was not much of a debate in the past (my hope that things would be better in the future). I believe, if the live telecast of the Parliamentary proceedings is from start to end of the parliament session, then the quality of our Parliament and its debate may improve because the rakyat will be watching...and evaluating them MPs. {No need to have any special commentator, or editing - just broadcast what is happening in the Dewan, as has been broadcasted through CCTV throughout the Parliament in the lobby, kantin, etc... there should not be any real increase in cost there. InThailand, it has been full broadcast for a long time..

Back to 'closed' or 'open' dialogue/discussion - I am an advocate of OPEN dialogue...OPEN Forums...OPEN Discussions. Every person should have a right to participate - to express an opinion - to lobby a position...

No more secret meeting where REPS sit and dialogue. For the Indians, most likely someone from MIC, for the Chinese, someone from MCA and for the Malays, someone from UMNO - that is how the BN did it ....but the fact is that political parties really do not represent the majority of the people in Malaysia. What is their membership? We are 27 million....

Can the Wakil Rakyats be representing us .... how can this be for they do not even meet the rakyat and get their views and comments. Many wakil rakyat are seen during the period before the elections and thereafter for some fuctioon here and there - but really, there is almost no opportunity for the people to meet with their MPs and/or ADUN.

Priests, Imams, etc -- come..come. They may be good for theological debates and discussions BUT many are really not in touch with the reality of their flock..

So, at the end of the day, I cannot agree with Anwar Ibrahim and the PKR about the fact that it should be 'behind closed doors'...

He [Dr Syed Husin Ali , PKR Deputy President] said PKR fully supported its adviser Datuk Seri Anwar Ibrahim’s view that the seminar should be organised behind closed doors, in view of the sensitive reactions and wrong perception among a section of the Malay-Muslim population. - Star Online, 11/8/2008 - PKR mulls over action on MP who stormed forum. -
Now, it was an ordinary forum but then people (who should have been more responsible) made it 'sensitive' and 'controversial' by their very statements to the media, and that included our DPM, Najib - who now rather than speak against the 'childish' badly behaved mob that barged in and caused an early end of the forum goes on happily with an "I told you so" statement and further brainwashing the ordinary Malaysian ninto thinking that such issues are 'sensitive'

Datuk Seri Najib Tun Razak said he had expected the extreme reaction to occur as the council ignored advice to call off the forum.

“We had expected this to happen. I’ve already said this before, don’t make it an open forum, do it behind closed doors. There will surely be some form of extreme reaction that will occur (if it was held openly).

“We’ve expected the incident to happen because the issue that was to be discussed is sensitive,” he said ..." Star Online, 11/8/2008 -Najib: Bar Council’s persistence caused extreme reaction
Now, there was a full crowd at the forum - and everything was going on well and nice -- until the group of protestors entered the venue and caused the forum to end prematurely. People were interested in the topic - people came to hear the different views. People also may have wanted to express their own views (but maybe the premature ending prevented did deprive many their rights to have their voices heard...to express themselves)

SENSITIVE - what is the sensitive about the forum.

Is it in any way advocating the abolition of the Syariah Court? NO

Is it in any way undermining Islam? NO

So, what are the concerns that results in people discussing Art 121(1A) and those cases...

Well, I am NOT very well versed about the various issues, but some concerns have cropped up in the past few years ..

When a man converts to Islam..and leaves (or do not leave) his non-Muslim wife, what happens when he dies? From the wealth and property he leaves behid, would his non-Muslim wife, his non-Muslim children, his non-Muslim parents and his non-Muslim dependents get anything. (without this inheritance, it may cause great hardship especially for the lower middle income families..)*** Does the Syariah law provide for this situation? Not really - so what do we do?

When a man converts to Islam - and his wife does not.What happens to the faith of the children? In terms of divorce, who will get custody of the children of the marriage? Interesting...

A man dies -- and suddenly his friends come and say that he is a Muslim. To his immediate family, he is not. What happens in this kind of situation? Who decides? What happens to the body..the funeral..etc..?

Such kinds of issues have been cropping up for a very long time, but over the past few years it has attracted the attention of the media and the public... and whatever the solution, it is something that cannot be rushed into ..and there is a NEED for real open discussion of the various concerns, issues and the possible Malaysian solutions...

SENSITIVE?...Well, it is time for 50 over years old Malaysia(and Malaysians) to grow up and start looking at the DIFFICULT MATTERS , yes reasonably look at it, and work out a solution...No more pushing it under the carpet and pretending it does not exist...or that it may go away on its own...

Name calling and breaking into forums...is not the answer...serious discussions, dialogues..is the way towards a GOOD Malaysian solution.

Well, back to the 'storm-troopers' of the Bar Forum, what about them - What is your stand PR, PKR, PAS, DAP? You cannot just ignore the fact that one was a chosen one - a Pakatan Rakyat MP, a PKR MP...and the other name mentioned was a PAS leader..

So, PKR has stated that they will be taking action against their BUT at the same time there is word that they would like to delay it to after the Permatang Pauh by-elections...and the reason is that they do not want to offend certain quarters...and do not want to jeopardize loss of some needed votes (Importantly, Zulkifli is the current MP of the nearby Kulim-Bandar Baharu constituency - and no wants him(and his supporters) to now start campaigning against the PKR because action is being taken against him..)

This is LAME - the people need to know the PKR stand on this.

The people also need to know the PAS stand on this as one PAS leader was also involved... and they want to know NOW.

We want to know the PAKATAN RAKYAT position - they possibly may be the next government of Malaysia.

For, if not, I am sure whether

- what happened that Saturday at the Bar Forum;

- and the lack of action on the part of PKR, PAS and the Pakatan Rakyat

may (or may not) have an impact in the coming by-elections.

When a clear stance is made, and action is taken(or not taken) against the 'storm-troopers' - some may not be happy...but we cannot help that. Our stance and position must be based on principle and good values - and will be a clear indication of what we REALLY are (not what we pretend to be)

***Some comments to the earlier post also say that UMNO was involved - and maybe so, but the media reports refered to Zulkifli as leader and named a PAS leader as being present. In that case, UMNO and BN also must make their stance clear...very clear and soon.

PKR is expected to discuss action to be taken against its Kulim-Bandar Baharu MP Zulkifli Noordin for his behaviour during a protest against the Bar Council forum on “embracing Islam.”

Party deputy president Dr Syed Husin Ali said PKR condemned the “rough action” of a small band of the demonstrators who “shouted rude and uncivilised language” against the organisers and forum participants on Saturday.

“We regret that unfortunately the ‘fiercest’ among them was someone known to be a lawyer and Member of Parliament,” Dr Syed Husin said in a statement issued yesterday.

While the statement did not mention names, Dr Syed Husin, when asked if disciplinary action would be taken against Zulkifli who led protesters into the forum hall, said many PKR leaders and members wanted it to be raised.

“I assume it will be discussed at the party level although at the moment we have bigger things to focus on,” he said of PKR’s preparation for the Permatang Pauh by-election.- Star Online, 11/8/2008 - PKR mulls over action on MP who stormed forum.


I must state that they had a right to peacefully protest - express their opposition to the holding of the forum. That is their right ....

BUT when they entered (or stormed in) the forum and caused it to end prematurely, that was wrong...

(Of course, the calling of names, etc... is bad..)

16 comments:

Dredd said...

i would really like to know what our reformasi leader, the one who fights for equality, justice, transparency, ketuanan rakyat, etc etc has to say on the matter. The only noise is coming from Syed and a few non-Malay PR leaders.

Anwar Ibrahim, why the silence?

Anonymous said...

Why we need this Forum ? Why we want to do the stupid thing that BN can put some of the Pakatan MP in Jail for ISA. Let the leaders handle it. In Pakatan Rakyat there are MOlems, Hindus, Christians, Budhists and Punjabi. So you must respect each other. Religion isue is very sensitive. Becareful.Don't make it worst.Don;t emosional. Think about your children.

You can discuss about your religion but try to discuss or critic others religons in OPEN FORUM. This is very very very dangerous !!! I TELL YOU. I WARNING YOU. Although i with Pakatan Rakyat. But I will never comprimise for anybody to critic my RELIGION. So stop it...

Anonymous said...

There is absolutely no other way. make your stand now! I believe all mature and thinking Malaysians will condemn the small minority who are giving the Muslims a bad name. SInce the "minority" is named and known they should be singled out and not allowed to hide behind the "small minority" of infantile racists, whether they are in UMNO, PKR Or PAS. Failure to come out strong on this issue will reflect the fear and hopelessness of the so-called "moderate majority"!

Anonymous said...

Some blogs say that Anwar is a camaeleon! I tend to agree now!
Well we had been had and was taken for a ride by this pkr two timing snakes!
Never again but these muslims make it so difficult to love them.No wonder the westerners were not wrong about them.
Its a timely wake up call and i hope we non muslims hold on to your votes next time around.
Shit to those pkr snakes!

Anonymous said...

very easy to condemn and blame others. My wonder why the title proposed by bar council last saturday 'Memeluk Islam'. Can you imagine and how the reactions, if we organise such forum 'memeluk hindu' or buddha or christian'. Do you people agree about that...think about it and why chose this topic??? Don't blame others

The bar council have been told not to discuss this issue in public and they won't listen..

So my comments, neither PM or Anwar or Haji Hadi not to give their comments and it was clearly stated that sensitive issues such as religion or races must NOT BE DISCUSSED to the public....

Anonymous said...

Islam will screw up the world.

Anonymous said...

Very easy to blame others. My question, why the BAR COUNCIL chose the topic of discussion ‘Memeluk Islam’…Can you imagine and how the reactions from Indians, Chinese and Christian, if we discuss a topic ‘Memeluk Hindu or Buddha or Christian..Do you agree this topic about your religion to be discussed openly to the public and of course you’re not agree…

My advise, neither PM or Anwar Ibrahim or Haji Hadi, please do not give your comments because the Bar Council have been told to stop to discuss this issue in public and it was clearly stated the sensitive issues such as religion or races are not proper and raise up to the public…please think about it????

Anonymous said...

anonymous 12:16, sad to say, in 20 years time, this country will be be overwhelmingly muslim majority. you have to toe the line. if you don't like it...i awill advise you to pack your stuff and migrate. you still have about 20 years to pack. no other way round. this country will definitely be an islamic nation soon, esp when UMNO, PKR (muslims) and PAS work together.

Anonymous said...

Hi Charles,

Between UMNO and PR, I am still willing to give PR a chance to prove themselves. Judge them when they govern and vote them out if they still cannot perform.Goons like Zulkifli and all the bad apples in PR must be rid off. To sabotage them now when the Permatang pauh election is approaching by asking them for firm response may not be a good idea. I appeal to all to give PR a chance or we will all live to regret it.

Anonymous said...

This is ridiculous.

Tis Hector is an idiot and clearly bias, why ask Pakatan to make a stand only?

Why do you not ask BeeEnd component parties to make their stand also?

Did you not see UMNO was even more virulent in the attacks on that day?

To the idiot commentors who say dont vote Pakatan or DSAI, what is your alternative??

you think ultras like Hamid Albar and Najis Razak will let you have your open forums???

DREAM ON!!!!!

Anonymous said...

Hello.... where got criticism of other people's religion?

I look and look at the forum title and cannot find criticism. I think people got mislead by stupid newspapers and people also stupid enough not to check their facts before making fools of themselves:




Forum title: “Conversion to Islam: Art 121(1A) of the Federal Constitution, Subashini & Shamala Revisited”'

How should conflicts in matrimonial and family matters i.e. divorce, custody, maintenance and distribution be resolved, upon conversion to Islam of one party in a non-Muslim marriage: Ought the Civil Courts to have exclusive jurisdiction?

jack said...

Dear friends and fellow malaysians,
there is no need for bigotry here. Two wrongs don't make one right! Let's be calm in tackling these issues. I too believe there is a massive grey area between the shariah and civil courts for those who have been and will be caught in between. Let's invite/get the right scholars/those with authority to discuss these issues. I know that this is not about Islam perse...it is about the execution of some of the laws.
And for those who are either using the Bar Council for political gains or those who just want to take the skewed side of reporting, or those who wishes to blemish their own religions or beliefs, you are as clear as the crystal...we do read between the lines.

penyokong PR said...

could not agree more.
why the silence ?
this Zulkifli could cause the
defeat of DSAI at Permatang Pauh.
Maybe this Zulkifli is just another Ezam in the making.
after all he is from UMNO.
I strongly urge all Pakatan Leaders
to make a stance before this by election and not after as the fate of Pakatan Rakyat lies in this very
important by election.
voters nowdays are very smart.

Anonymous said...

Hi Charles,
Precisely my sentiments (see http://umbrage-umbrage.blogspot.com/). Anwar seems shaky coming up with a response that will please everyone. Hopefully he will do the right thing.

Anonymous said...

The trouble and problems we hv today are because of the so called CLOSED DOOR meeting to resovle. Who r behind these closed door meeting. They r all BN goons who do not represent the rakyat at all.
Nobody knows what have been happening to all these so called meetings. Come on, be open and mature enough to thrash issues be it religion, race, etc....frankly. If these BN goons keeps resolving issues this way, another 500 years we r still the same. Wake up everybody.

Samuel Goh Kim Eng said...

Why should some people be afraid of legal, intellectual discourse

Only harbouring the potential fear that everything will go off course

When there are those who seek answers as a matter of grave cause

Let closed caves be left behind for those who desire to be off clause

(C) Samuel Goh Kim Eng - 120808

http://MotivationInMotion.blogspot.com

Tue. 12th Aug. 2008.